May 12

May 12 Episode 499: Jason Kander

Kelly talks to Jason Kander about talking to our friends and neighbors, supporting veterans, and putting in the work to reclaim mental health. Jason Kander is an Army veteran, the former Secretary of State of Missouri, President of the Veterans Community Project, and the host of Majority 54, a podcast that helps Americans who voted for progress convince those who didn’t to join our majority.

Musical credits:

"Are You Listening" from Elephant Shaped Trees by IMUNURI.
Released February 3, 2018.
Composed by André Pilette, with the help of Adam Garcia, Stephanie Leary, and Dan Wilson.
Lyrics written by Stephanie Leary.
Produced by André Pilette and Stephanie Leary.
Mixed by Brett Ryan Stewart of The Sound Shelter in Nashville, TN.
Mastered by Michael Fossenkemper of Turtle Tone Studio in NYC.
Song used with permission by the band.

Episode Transcript

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This transcript is AI-produced and may contain errors. Please check back a few days after the episode airs for a cleaned-up version of the transcript.

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Teddy 0:00

Hi, this is Teddy and you're listening to Two Broads Talking Politics. Today's guest is Jason Kander. Jason Kander is the host of Majority 54, a podcast that helps Americans who voted for progress convince those who didn't to join our majority. Each week Jason and his co host, Ravi, equip their audience with the tool needed to talk to their conservative friends and acquaintances, counter misinformation online and still maintain relationship with those whose opinions differ from their own. You can find Majority 54 on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Kelly 1:02

Hi, everyone, I'm Kelly. This is Two Broads Talking Politics. I am on today with Jason Kander. It could take a while to go through everything that Jason has done. But he is an army veteran, was the Secretary of State in Missouri, ran for senate from Missouri, is the president of the Veterans Community Project, wrote a book, is one of the hosts of Majority 54. And probably most importantly, is a dad of two. So hi, Jason.

Jason Kander 1:29

Howdy. Thanks for having me.

Kelly 1:30

Yeah, I have so many things I want to talk to you about. But first Happy Birthday. It was your birthday about a week ago.

Jason Kander 1:37

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Kelly 1:39

I am older than you. So welcome to 40.

Jason Kander 1:45

Thanks. Well, I appreciate it. It's pretty good. So far. I have no complaints as of yet.

Kelly 1:50

Yeah, my I'm only 42. So I'm not that far ahead to you. But 40s are pretty good so far, I think. You host Majority 54, and of course, were a statewide elected official in Missouri. And so you think a lot about talking to people who you know, aren't necessarily don't think of themselves as progressive. Don't think of themselves as Democrats, getting them on board with ideas that Democrats might have. I am feeling particularly down today, after the GOP voted to kick Liz Cheney out of leadership. I have nothing in common with Liz Cheney don't agree with her on pretty much any political issue that we could think of. But it's really depressing to me to think that Liz Cheney is too radical, too rational, I don't know something, for the Republican Party. So let's talk a little bit about just you know, what we're where do we go from here? How do we come together? How do we talk to people we don't agree with in this country, it feels like we're headed toward this split. And I don't want to think that way. I want to think about coming together and being one country. So talk to me some about that, how you think about that? And you know, maybe some hopeful words.

Jason Kander 3:08

Sure. So, you know, it's funny, that's why I started Majority 54 in the first place. It was like, it was 2017. And I was all over the country on the campaign trail. And being a guy who had who had won a statewide race in Missouri. The question that I was getting more than anything, there were two. The first one was, you know, how do we win in places where there's, you know, not enough Democrats to automatically win, you got to persuade people. But then what I was hearing just as often that intrigued me was, how do I maintain a relationship with the people in my life, like my aunt, or my best friend from high school, or my cousin or whatever, who are, you know, voting for Trump, or who are who completely disagree with me, who I care about, and I want to persuade, but I don't want to alienate, and that that's how Majority 54 was born. The whole idea of the show, is to it's called Majority 54 because initially 54% of the country in 2016, voted for somebody not named Donald Trump. So at first, it's a recognition of the fact that we are the majority in the country and continue to be, but it's about expanding that majority, and talking to people who are not currently a part of it, and doing it without losing those relationships. So look, I just try to remind people that, you know, history is long, and that while we can get really wrapped up in stuff like whether or not, you know, the Republican Caucus, ousted Liz Cheney, that doesn't actually affect anybody's life. And what we've got to focus on is the fact that like, right now, you know, President Biden is working toward passing yet another stimulus and the one we, you know, the CARES Act, and then the American Rescue Plan, have both made enormous differences in people's lives. So I try to focus on what's actually happening because that's what people who don't have political podcast. And who, frankly, don't listen to political podcasts because that's the majority of Americans. That's what they care about is they care about is stuff getting done. And right now stuff is getting done. And that's the very best argument. I've always said progress is the best argument for progressive values. And so you got to have progress that people can see. And right now we're achieving that.

Kelly 5:21

So one of the things that we're achieving, of course, is a getting a lot of the country vaccinated against COVID, getting the the COVID numbers to start going down. But there's this real reluctance on the part of some people to get the vaccine or, you know, not just reluctance, but outright hostility, perhaps, toward the vaccine. Do you have ways that we can talk to people in our lives about the vaccine, things that we can focus on to really get people to want to go along with us.

Jason Kander 5:54

So there's two things here, the first is something that we can do. And the second is something that's just going to happen, you know, just to reassure people, something that's just inevitable. So first, just like with anything else, it's so important to personalize it. You know, when you're talking with somebody in your life, who's hesitant about the vaccine, you know, you can say the same stuff to them the CDC is saying, you can say the same stuff to them that they could hear on the news. But they they're already getting that somewhere else, they're getting that and they're saying, that's not enough for me. So what you got to do is you got to personalize it, because you got to say, look, you care about me, you think I have credibility by virtue of being a relationship in your life. Maybe this is, you know, a fellow parent, in your kids class or another congregant, in your in your place of worship, or your neighbor, whatever it is, you have some pre-existing relationship with them. And this is true, whether you're talking about persuading somebody to get the vaccine or persuading them to vote for a progressive candidate, it is leveraging your pre existing relationship and then personalizing it and saying, "Look, I'll tell you what, I wasn't concerned about getting the vaccine." And just really walk them through your thought process, walk them through your experience, right. And then I would say, "Now, let me tell you why I care about you getting the vaccine." And I would start with I care about you, but I would go further and without shaming them. And that's very important. Because once you start shaming somebody, they're going to go right into the defensive posture. And they're and you're what you're really doing is they're getting more entrenched in their view. So you have to, you know, even if it's hard to do, you have to speak to them with a lot of respect for their view and for their perspective. And, you know, sometimes I think what also helps on this first point is to be very genuinely curious, because somebody who's, you know, hesitant about getting the vaccine, they've gotten to that place somehow, right? There's something that's going on either in their life or something they've heard, that there's a cumulative build up to have to make that decision. And if you are genuinely not like, that's weird, curious, but like, I'd like to know more about that, then that's going to give you even more credibility when you make your point about why you got the vaccine because you showed genuine interest in what their thinking was. So that's the first approach, that's a person to person approach.

Second, and on my podcast, Majority, 54, Ravi Gupta, my co host, made this point a few weeks ago, and I think it's a good one, there is a certain inevitable time element of this, that as things open back up, there are going to be venues and places where it is going to be A) required for you to have the vaccine, and people are going to want access to that; or B) very socially awkward not to have had it. I was in a meeting the other day where somebody made a comment about how you know, people who don't have the vaccine are crazy. And I actually happen to know that there was one person in that meeting who they had COVID not that long ago, but they have not gotten the vaccine. I didn't say anything, but I know that it was an awkward moment for them. Because they you know, one person, myself, knew that. Those awkward moments are going to proliferate for people. And I think, you know, that combined with like, wanting to go to a football game, you know, or wanting to get on, whatever the it ends up being. I think those are gonna make a big difference.

Kelly 9:12

Yeah, I think so too. I, you know, I work in my day job at the university and that's sort of an ongoing question for universities, for schools is, do we require it? And even if you don't, I think there is going to be that social pressure at some point for people to have been vaccinated, to get vaccinated. So I think, yeah, I think that that that is coming in is happening.

Jason Kander 9:37

And I also think it's important to remember that not everybody who has not gotten the vaccine, it's like buying into conspiracy theories about the vaccine. I mean, some people are just like, yeah, I'm gonna do it, but but they feel like, Oh, that's kind of left the news. Maybe that's less of an issue. You know, and so sometimes it may just be like, you know, you can still get this thing, it can still kill you. I mean, just, you know, reminding people. You know, front of mind.

Kelly 10:01

Yeah, I just saw that Mike Dewine in Ohio is offering, they're gonna start having like a lottery for people who've gotten the vaccine and they could win a million dollars. So there's that.

Jason Kander 10:13

Yeah, not a bad idea at all.

Kelly 10:15

I was a little disappointed: I got my vaccine in Ohio, but since I'm not an Ohio resident, I'm not eligible for the million dollars.

Jason Kander 10:23

Yeah, well, you gotta you gotta lobby your governor.

Kelly 10:26

Lobby my governor, or just move back to Ohio?

Jason Kander 10:29

Yeah, either way.

Kelly 10:30

You talk a lot about, you know, how we have these relationships, how we can have these individual conversations, you know, how we can get to be, you know, maintain the relationships that we have with people. Do you think there's a way to extend that into politics more? So, you know, if you were running for president, let's say, how do you extend that message that you can have one on one with people that be you know, these conversations that you can have, how do we get to a point where we can have that in a larger space? Or do we get to that point, you know, is it is it something that only works in this sort of one to one kind of relationship?

Jason Kander 11:10

It's interesting, I don't actually think of the two is all that separate, because I, because the most effective endorsement you can get is from somebody that that a voter knows, right? Like, you can get the very best interest group endorsement, or you can get the very best politician endorsement, but it's not as good as getting the endorsement of somebody's next door neighbor. And so to me, campaigns have to integrate this strategy. And, you know, I think about ways that campaigns have done that, when you think about what Elizabeth Warren did in her campaign, you know, with, I'm going to take every selfie, because that's something that people are going to post. And yes, that's social media, but what it really is, is it if you post that, you're saying to everybody, you know, this is my person, right? And that is, you know, not that dissimilar from bringing it up in conversation, like, you know, it's gonna be people who you don't know, through politics, and you know, it's just like, people you went to grade school with, or you're still friends with on Facebook, right. So that, I think, is how you integrate the two. And I also think it is not just about social media is about old school word of mouth. Because when you think about, and this goes back to like, why we started Majority 54, the majority of Americans, you know, weren't down with Trump and aren't down with, you know, extremism, right wing extremism, or extremism generally, and what that means is that if that majority of Americans were just bringing up politics in a polite and respectful, but you know, audacious way, in their everyday life, it'd be more effective than any ad campaign, any digital campaign, anything you could ever do, because there are more of us than there are of them. And so if we are, you know, blasting through that awkward moment at a family dinner, or, or whatever it is, and just saying like, Hey, have you heard about, you know, this gun bill that's before Congress, to people who we haven't always discussed that kind of thing with. There's no more effective campaign that I could possibly imagine. So I think the two have to be integrated.

Kelly 13:10

So I want to follow up on this guns, comments, of course, you famously, were the person who in a commercial were able to put together an AR 15, blindfolded and challenged Roy Blunt to do the same. And in fact, I mentioned to one or two people, I know that I was interviewing you, and there are people who don't follow politics very closely. And they said, Oh, who's that? And I said, you know, the the guy who put together the AR 15. And, and that's how they knew you. So you, you can speak with some authority about guns in a way that someone like me can't, you know, I've never even touched a gun. So how do we then have those conversations, those conversations with, you know, and their people that we all know, that we all love, who are really worried that Democrats are going to come and take their guns, and they are really worried that, you know, they won't be safe anymore? Or they won't, they won't be able to fend off government overreach, if they don't have their guns? How do we have these conversations about having smart gun laws having safe gun laws? You know, and how can people like you who can speak with that authority? You know, further that conversation?

Jason Kander 14:25

So a couple of things here. First, I think it's important for us to acknowledge something which is we've won this argument. And I say that I think it's important to start there, because it often feels as if we haven't, and the reason it feels as if we haven't, is because we haven't gotten anything passed through Congress yet. But that doesn't mean that we have failed to win the argument. We have to be really careful on issues like this, like voting rights, like climate change all of these issues. We have to not confuse the fact that our system is fundamentally broken right now. And then we have you know, issues like gerrymandering, You know, all the all these issues that break the system and therefore impede progress, or at least make progress much, much harder to achieve. We can't allow that to discourage us and make us think that we're not making a difference in persuading people, because the vast majority of Americans want common sense gun reform. Now, that said, the only way we're going to get it is if we persuade even more people, right? Or if we change the law, change the rules in the Senate, which is a whole other conversation. But I think, you know, you can go back to that ad I did. What sometimes people don't remember is that ad was basically me saying, Yeah, I'm for gun control, because I know what the heck I'm talking about. And and that's important, but not for the reason that most people think I think most people figure that's important, because I know what I'm talking about. But when you think about the voters that are actually persuadable on the gun issue, who would be gettable otherwise, right? voters who are like, you know, they agree with us on most everything, but the gun issue is what pulls them away. It is rarely the case, in my experience that those folks actually believe that Democrats are going to go take their hunting rifle, the democrats are going to go take their their pistol that they have in their home for home protection, their shotgun for the same purpose. It's usually not the case that they may say that in a poll, but when you talk to them, that's not what's going on, what's really going on, is that there's an undertone of the argument, when people say they're going to take your guns, what they mean is, this person would not fit in with you and your friends, culturally, they are not like you, and you don't have anything in common. So when, for instance, a liberal democrat from Kansas City is running in Missouri. And they're they're saying that what they're saying over and over again, really to those gettable voters is if he wound up on your block, or hanging out in your local watering hole, he would stand out like a sore thumb. And so an ad like that, where I'm advocating for gun control, is me saying this is what I'm about. We may not agree, you and I would get along fine, though. And and I think that's really important on these particularly on these cultural issues is, is to remind people you don't I think Democrats often make the mistake of thinking that they have to take a conservative position in order to bridge that divide. You don't have to in fact, people sniff that out. And they don't respect it. Right. So what you do is, is you say, here's what I'm about. Here's why. And you just do it in a way that people from where you're from talk, right? Like, I'll give you an example. That's not guns. But in 2016, right before the run up to that election in October, just a couple of weeks out. President Obama issued guidance, or his department of education issued guidance on transgender bat on the transgender bathroom rules for public schools. And this happened a couple of weeks for the election. And I'm running in Missouri, and I, you know, rarely parted with Obama on anything. And and most opponents were like, Okay, this is the moment or candor he has no choice two weeks, at that moment. I was ahead. And it was really close. And they and this was before the Comey letter, obviously. And so they're like, Okay, he's got a slightly there's no way that he's gonna agree with Obama on transgender bathrooms. Why agreed with Obama on transgender bathrooms? I did it very publicly, I did it right away. I just said it the way somebody from Missouri says it, and all I said is, look, I have no interest in discriminating against other people's kids. Period. That was it. I agreed. And I just said it the way somebody would say it, if they were, you know, at a, at a block party with their neighbors, and the issue came up, and it wasn't, it didn't affect the race. And so it's just just be yourself, and sound like someone who's from where you're from, and say what you believe.

Kelly 18:51

That's such great advice. And you know, I think about this a lot because I you know, I'm from Stark County, Ohio. So I'm from one of these places where that's how people talk, you know, but now I live in Chicago. And I, I feel like there is this cultural divide. Sometimes when I try to go back and speak the language of start County, Ohio, I'm not that I'm not a different person than I was there not different people than they were. But it does feel sometimes like we we have almost a separate. It's not actually a separate vocabulary, but it feels that way. It feels like there there is this divide in that it's hard to feel like, it's hard to sound like you are from there, that you are that person when you have been in this other place. But But really, we're not different. You know, I

Jason Kander 19:35

think the kinds of things I'm thinking about people in my life who own lots of guns and you know, talk about being worried about someone taking the guns from them. We have way more in common than we have this separates us. So I think that that's important to try to get back to that, that being able to talk the same language. The key is empathy. And the thing is, it's very hard to be empathic. If you don't spend time around folks, right, and so that's how we all end up in our bubbles. And we live in a day and age where it's the longest period in American history without some form of mandatory service, we have a gazillion different entertainment options. So there's no shared experience there. And really, unless you make an effort, it's very hard in most people's day to day life, to be exposed to people who are, you know, living a different life than you or, you know, disagree with you. The only exception to that tends to be when when the circumstances are very unequal. When it is somebody who is in a service job is somebody who were you, you are not in that engagement like in that exchange, you're not on equal footing. And that that's not good enough, that doesn't count. Right? So, so it takes effort. And, you know, for me, I'm no longer I don't do the paid cnn gig anymore. I did it for about a year, a couple years ago. But when I did it, I office during that period, out of the electrician, unions Hall, near my house, and I just had a tiny little office with me and my assistant. And you know, and then we had a big staff around the country for let America vote. But like I was working out of Kansas City, and I could have worked out of my house, I could have worked out of a co working space. But I chose to work at the IBEW Hall because what I wanted to do is if I knew I was going to have a TV hit that night, or I was going to go give a speech. I you know, rather than watching cable news and saying the same thing as everybody else, I walked down to the break room at lunch, and I ate in there and I listened to folks and I talked to folks. And so then when I went on TV that night, I sounded distinctly different, I took my positions that I believed in, but I had already road tested them against guys who, you know, we're doing work as electricians all day long. And, you know, so I think the key is, is to continue to expose yourself to that because it is a perishable skill.

Kelly 21:56

You mentioned that this is a time period without national service, do you think that some some sort of national service wouldn't have to be military, of course, but that that could start to bridge these divides a little bit that people could be exposed to something outside of what they grew up with?

Jason Kander 22:15

I think it's imperative that we do it. And I think it should be mandatory, I don't think it should be mandatory military. But at the end of the day, all of these things that we talked about with regard to polarization, you know, everything from voter suppression, to voting rights, to the way gerrymandering is the way you campaign campaigns are financed all of this. We are trying to fix a cultural problem with political solutions. And don't get me wrong, we have a huge political problem in this country with our democracy. And we should fix it with a with those political solutions. It's imperative that we do. But if we were to pass the for the people out tomorrow, and it's a generational change, generational importance piece of legislation, and I'm working to make sure we do. Look, if we were to pass it tomorrow, I think in a couple years, we would be shocked to find out that it hadn't changed as much in the country as far as the dialogue. And that kind of thing is we want it to because we have a cultural problem. And our cultural problem is Americans no longer know one another. You know, what do Americans, like? You know, politicians always say what unites us is we're all Americans. That's true. But I don't know what that means anymore. I mean, it's like a one in three chance that you watch the Superbowl and a 100% chance that you have a strong opinion one way or the other on Taylor Swift. Like, that's what unites Americans. And that's not enough. And so we, the reason we need mandatory service of some kind is not the more predictable thing that people say that is we need, we need people to serve their country and get invested in the success of their country. Yes, that is a benefit of it. But we need to do it because we need to force Americans to know people who are nothing like them. Because you only have the level of division we have within a culture, when you have not just a lack of knowing one another but you have an animosity and a fear of people who are not like yourself. And the only way to bridge that is to force us to be around people who are not like ourselves. And by the way, also to create a shared experience. We don't have that anymore. And at some point, you lose that. When I say national identity, I think sometimes people take that to mean like that. That is somehow the opposite of multiculturalism. It's not multiculturalism is our national identity. But we don't have every American invested in that. And the only way we're ever going to get there is if we know each other again.

Kelly 24:43

I love it. I have a six year old and a nine year old, I'm ready to sign them up for a national service right now.

Jason Kander 24:49

I mean, same here, look, I'm biased on this right because look at my background, right like I grew up in a family. I grew up in the suburbs of Kansas City, in a In a Jewish family that had was was pretty well off, like we, we were not hurting. And the and then what did I do, like I went to law school, I became a lawyer, the trajectory of my life is one, that there's no reason that I should have, at any point, have the ability to empathize with people who are not like myself to care about, or to even have any comfort level or an understanding of people who are not like myself. But there's one variable, one intervening factor. After 911, I joined the United States Army, and I deployed to Afghanistan, and I learned that there were people from all over the place who are completely different than me, that I became family with. And I cared about them, and I, and it brought me out of that comfort zone. And there's just, there's nothing like, particularly for me as an officer, you know, I had people from every possible background, who I was responsible for their life, and they would come to me with issues like their finances with issues like about what was going on inside their body, because I was the person they would come to. And they were my family. And so that's what changed for me. So I've seen it happen.

Kelly 26:10

I've been for a separate project I'm doing I've been thinking about World War One. And I've been thinking not about the people who were serving in World War One, but back at the homefront, and how there was this collective coming together of people who were, you know, in the case i'm looking at, they were knitting socks and things for soldiers, or they were, you know, growing Victory Gardens or whatever it is, but they were thinking a lot about the the war that was happening while they were still back home. And I think that that is something that clearly just doesn't happen anymore. So, you know, Biden announced that by September 11 of this year, the troops are going to withdraw from Afghanistan. And despite the fact that I've known that we were at war for 20 years, and I know people who've served I just don't think about it that much. It's just not a part of my life. So what what does that mean for people who, who serve and who are at war, when you come home when you come back and and know that life has not changed that much for for people who are back in? Who are back stateside, you know, what, what does that look like? And how can we have more empathy for people who are in the military think more about that focus more on that?

Jason Kander 27:30

It's a great question. And the answer as to what it means for folks in the military is it's incredibly damaging. For anybody interested in this subject. There's a great book, it's maybe the best nonfiction book I've read in the last 10 years. And it's by Sebastian, younger, it's called tribe on homecoming, and belonging. And one of the things that he looks at is over over history, how different societies have handled the homecoming of warriors. And if you look at, for instance, a lot of Native American communities, they, you know, when when there was a war, they would the Warriors would come home, and they didn't just like, okay, you're back, let's just put you right back into life. They had a ceremony, they had purification rituals, they had return ceremonies. And in those, the Warriors got up. And they talked about the things they saw. And so what that did, is it bridge that divide. Now the rest of the community, they weren't there on the battlefield, but they were also not allowed to shield themselves from it. They, which did a couple of things. One, and this is pretty important. It, it made it so that those warriors didn't feel like they were going through the aftermath of that by themselves that they had to keep that stuff inside. The other thing it does is it educates the rest of the community about you know what war is like, it doesn't sanitize it for them, which makes it that much less likely that that a war will be undertaken lightly in the future. And, you know, that stuff's really important. I mean, my personal experience has been, I can remember, you know, I was back a few weeks, maybe in 2007, when I was in a bar, and somebody said to me, Well, at least you weren't in Iraq. I mean, nothing's really happening in Afghanistan. Right. And I, I couldn't, I was very angry at them. But I knew that that was not fair to them. I couldn't help it. Because I knew that at that time, the narrative was Iraq is the war in Africa, and nothing's happened in Afghanistan, nevermind, the per capita casualty rate was the same. You know, but that and I remember how upsetting that was to me. And I also as a as a public person, who, you know, my experience in the military was a big part and is a big part of who are him and so I talked about that a fair amount. I also knew what were the three or four stories I could tell that I can tell in a way that wouldn't upset me but also Most importantly, wouldn't cause the audience or the person I was talking to to recoil. And every every combat veteran who's you know who's listening to this knows what I'm talking about, which is you a few times, it doesn't take long before you put your hand on that Livewire, and learn quickly that people say they want to hear about your service, but they're not really prepared to. Because there's a point at which I mean, there were a few times when people are like, No, no, tell me more. Tell me a story about this. And there were a few times I was like, Okay, I'll, I'll chance it, I'll try it. And you can just feel the person recoil. And you can feel it change their idea of you. And, and so the best thing is for us to have more opportunities for soldiers who come home to talk about what they went through. In the book in tribes, Sebastian, younger, proposes this idea which he's now trying to get off the ground, which are veteran town halls that are not like traditional town halls where people come and ask questions, but they are events where you show up, and veterans get up, and they talk kind of like those Native American community rituals. They talk about their experience, and you demonstrate your patriotism and your commitment to veterans, by showing up and listening. And, and, you know, that's the kind of thing but on top of that, you're how you preface you started with, there has to be sacrificed by people other than the military, because right now, the military goes to war in the country doesn't. And that is a perfect formula for having the longest war in the history of the country. And that's Afghanistan. And look, if you went back in time, and you wrote the American story from the beginning, obviously, there's a lot of stuff you'd change. But one thing that you would definitely not keep the same is you would not write Afghanistan is the longest war in American history. You just wouldn't. And the only way you get there is when the military is a war and the country's not. And you can take it all the way back to the moment after 911 when the country was ready to do whatever George W. Bush would ask. And he said, Go shop, when what he should have said is, you know, buy war bonds and don't cash your man or whatever it is like he should have that. And then and then cut taxes like no war costs were costs. And there should be a cost. Otherwise it goes on forever.

Kelly 32:16

So you are now the president of the veterans community project, can you talk some about what what that project is what you're seeking to do, we can't go back and change the course of this war with Afghanistan. But we can certainly do more to help our veterans. And so give us some action items, some things we can do.

Jason Kander 32:37

I really appreciate the softball free plug. I'll take it. Thank you very much. So veterans community project is a 501 c three, nonprofit based in Kansas City. It was founded by a group of local combat veterans of which I'm not one of the co founders, I've come along later. But what it does is a couple of things. One, it provides outreach, walk in services to any veteran who comes in with any need. So unlike the VA, where they're in the VA has wonderful people, I go to the VA, the VA system can be onerous. And the other thing that a lot of people don't know about the VA system is there. There are limits on who qualifies as a veteran, and there are limits on you know, what amount of services that veterans can get, depending on what kind of service they had. Well, adventerous meaning project are our approaches, if you raise your right hand and took the oath and then served for like an hour, fine, you qualify for 100% of our services, we don't have any there's no grading of service, it's just you get everything. And it's just across the board, very low barrier. And so we help people through the outreach program with you know, everything from their VA paperwork to emergency assistance funds, if they're about to, you know, miss a rent payment to or a car payment to career counseling to just anything you can think veterinary care for their animals, like what VCP is done. It's so brilliant is it is dipped into the very rich reservoir of goodwill that exists in society toward veterans and said, Whatever you do, you can do it here. You don't have to just stand up at a ballgame and applaud when a veterans in the jumbotron you can actually do things. So we do that through the Outreach Center. But we also do it through the community center, which is what we're better known for, which is a part of our program to fight veterans homelessness. And in that we build villages of tiny houses with wraparound case management services for homeless veterans, and we transition them back into permanent housing. I came into it two years ago because I actually went into the outreach center to get help with my VA paperwork. And, and then six months later, after, you know, going through weekly therapy for PTSD at the VA, I came on board and became the president of veterans community project and we are expanding nationally. We're building these campuses around the country now, and I should I should I should add, we are privately funded, and we're based on donations and people can go to veterans community project.org drought.

Kelly 35:00

Excellent, we will put a link up so that people will in fact go donate I love the very good pictures of the, the tiny houses too. It's just, it's such an incredible idea. And it you're right when you know, when I go to a baseball game or something and you know, they say, you know, stand up and applaud and it feels so shallow, it feels like there's got to be something more that we can do. And so having something more to do is is fantastic. You just mentioned your, your therapy for PTSD. Of course, you very publicly talked about depression and PTSD when you step down from the mayoral race for Kansas City. How are you doing now? And you know, can you just say a little bit about what what that mental health journey looked like, for you?

Jason Kander 35:52

Sure, I'm doing better than me, I'm doing great. I'm doing better than I have since before I deployed. And, and so I'm so glad that I decided to get better. I went about 11 years after my deployment, sort of fighting myself and refusing to admit to myself that I had post traumatic stress. And so I, you know, I spent over a decade with untreated undiagnosed post traumatic stress, which meant, you know, for me, the symptoms were violent nightmares, hyper vigilance, which is to say, sort of feeling like you're in danger, or your family's in danger all the time, you know, self loathing, and shame, and emotional numbness and that sort of thing. And then that, so that after, you know, 11 years of not getting a good night's sleep and going through those symptoms, then there are other symptoms that develop out of that. So for me, that was depression. And eventually what developed out of that was suicidal ideation, and which is to say suicidal thoughts. And, and that that was the point at which I, you know, first what happened was, I was getting ready to run for president and I knew something was wrong. But I wasn't ready to say it was pts yet. So I was like, Well, I know what I'll fix this hole inside me, I'll go home, and I'll become the mayor, and I'll serve my neighbors. And, you know, we were going to win the mayor's race pretty handily. Which, you know, obviously, when you're gonna run for president and you choose to run for mayor, you, you should be in a position to win your local mayor's race pretty handily. So that was all going well, but it wasn't going well for me. And that's when things spiraled out of control. And I decided to get help. And, and I, you know, publicly said that that's what I was doing. So I went through to, you know, two kinds of therapy for PTSD, I went to the VA. And so I went through what's called cognitive processing therapy, which is, you know, talk therapy, but really what it was, for me was, like, an education like a course, in my brain and in how posttraumatic stress works, and sort of helping me understand how the behaviors that I had gotten used to the coping mechanisms and all that, how that where that came from, because if you understand, you know, like, GI Joe said, knowing is half the battle, right. So that was a big, that was big for me, and important. But equally important was something called prolonged exposure therapy, which was a combination of talking about my traumatic experiences, until they no longer had a grip on me so much. And also doing things like in everyday life, that forced me to stop using safety behaviors. So it would be everything from like prolonged exposure therapy, could be listening to a recording of myself every day in between weekly sessions talking about a traumatic experience in Afghanistan. But it could also be probably in the same day, going to a restaurant, and sitting with my back to the door for 45 minutes without turning around, right. And making myself do that. And over time. Like any injury, it got better and better and better. It doesn't get cured, because it's based on memories. But it gets better. And it gets to the point where the symptoms no longer disrupt your life. And that's where I am now I compare it to, you know, right before I went in the army, I blew up my knee, I was going to pick up football and try to be a hero. And I ruptured my ACL on my knee, and I had to get surgery and go through physical therapy to get into the army. So I have knee problems. But, you know, I'm in pretty good shape, and I can go out and I can run, but I know that there's a point at which it's gonna hurt. So I'm gonna have to take some Advil, and I'm gonna have to ice it really well afterwards, I'm going to have to stretch, but I can still run and I can still hang in there. And, and you can get to a point, if you put in the work and you do the therapy, or that's what posttraumatic stress can be in your life. That's what it is. for me. I still have post traumatic stress. But now I know it when I see it. And when I have a symptom of some kind, I'm pretty good about not just hating myself for it and finding myself to be dysfunctional. I go, Oh, I know what that is. And I know how to manage it. It doesn't disrupt my life in the same way.

Kelly 40:03

Therapy is wonderful. Everyone should go.

Jason Kander 40:06

I agree.

Kelly 40:07

Yeah, I have not had a particularly traumatic moment but suffered extreme anxiety for a few years. And I could not do what I do could not be talking to you right now, if I had not gone to therapy, it's I am putting in the work that I think is the other piece of what you said that is so important about that.

Jason Kander 40:29

That's the part that was the biggest surprise to me about it is I think I sort of pictured therapy like, like, antibiotics are something like you go and you sit there and you talk. And it's almost like getting an IV drip or something. But it's much more like physical therapy, or like grad school. I mean, you, you go to your appointments, and you do the work there. But you got to do the work in between, you got to do the homework, and you got to be really committed to it. And if you do that, it makes a huge difference. And it's totally worth it.

Kelly 41:00

Well, Jason, I think I could probably keep asking you questions all night, but we both have kids and other stuff. So let you go. But remind everyone how to listen to your podcast and how to follow you on Twitter. Awesome.

Jason Kander 41:12

First of all, I enjoyed this. Thank you very much for having me. Yeah, my podcast is majority 54 you can get it wherever you get your podcast. Wherever you get this podcast, you can get it. And you can find me on Twitter. I'm at Jason Kander kanders K and D ER and same thing on Instagram at Jason Kander. So thanks so much.

Sonya 41:34

Thank you for listening to Two Broads Talking Politics part of the DemCast Podcast Network. Our theme song is called Are You Listening off of the album Elephant Shaped Trees by the band IMUNURI and we're using it with permission of the band. Our logo and other original artwork is by Matthew Weflen, and was created for use by this podcast. You can contact us at TwoBroadsTalkingPolitics@gmail.com or on Twitter or Facebook @TwoBroadsTalk you can find all of our episodes at TwoBroadsTalkingPolitics.com or anywhere podcasts are found.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

May 12 Episode 499: Jason Kander

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